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October 03, 2008

Comments

I'm sorry to hear about the separation. Here's hoping it's only temporary.

Off to get my contribution together for the 'Thon. :)

Creepy: A teacher was merely suspended for using a racial epithet directed at presidential candidate Barack Obama? Suspended?

Creepy: Ya gotta love working in a cubicle, with lots of immigrant co-workers.

Beep beep beep... Ffffzzzt!

h: Bless you and your boobies.

Larry: Huh?

Larry: Since when has the word "immigrant" become a racial epithet? Is it bigoted to say that hearing conversations in multiple languages at the same time is distracting?

Creep: Sorry about the separation. Hope you guys can figure out what you both need and decide you're getting it from this relationship.

Creepy,
You burned out the sensor in my hypocricy detector. Those things are expensive...

Freshlyevil: Is it bigoted to say that hearing conversations in multiple languages at the same time is distracting?

Sorry, but I don't think that's an accurate description of what he was saying at all.

My issue is that he feels it's OK to insult anyone's religion in every way imaginable, rail against them damn dirty foreigners on a regular basis and call anyone with a southern accent a stupid redneck, but he wants some guy crucified for using one particular word. Getting pretty selective about our interpretation of free speach, aren't we?

Lest the above be misinterpreted, no, I don't use or approve of that word. I just don't think, for instance that anyone lving in Florida who isn't at lest 75% Seminole has any business complaining about "immigrants". Maybe it's just me...

Can we meet your mother?

Good points Larry. However, the fact is I am not paid for what I write here; in fact, I pay to spew this shit. I think there's more than a little difference between a public school teacher using the word "nigger" in a classroom and me insulting superstitious people on my paid blog. More than a little.

And I didn't ask for him to be crucified (that was the people who killed animals). But I certainly believe he should have been fired.

And what "damn dirty foreigners" did I rail against? All I meant was my mind was processing three different languages simultaneously and was about to blow a fuse. I've never said I have anything against immigrants (as we are all immigrants), or that people shouldn't speak foreign languages here in America. Though I have said and still firmly believe they should make every effort possible to learn the native language, as any of us would be obligated to if we relocated to a country that spoke another language.

Religion is something someone chooses. You get no protection from bias for something you choose to be. It's okay for people to make fun of me for choosing to wear a stupid pimp hat but I can't make fun of people for believing in a fairy godfather?

Tanya: Um, you guys are good people, I don't see why not. Although I can't guarantee she'll be "on."

Who should be more worried, your mum or us?

We got to meet Coaster Punchman's mother in law, Mama Gin, and that was a trip!

I don't think Mom could top Mama Gin.

So speech is protected on the internet, but not at your job? Or you're saying if he used the word on his blog it would be fine? Or is that you don't think any kids ever read your blog? Yeah, he's a teacher and therefore has a higher duty than you to be setting an example, but I only see a difference of scale, not a fundamental difference of substance.

RE: "damn dirty foreigners"
I was referring to an ongoing pattern in your posts. This one was fairly mild. Taken together, they give a pretty strong vibe of prejudice against foreigners. And yeah, the U.S. is one of the few placees on earth where people expect everyone who moves there to learn their language. Most places, the locals make a point of learning languages from surrounding areas so they can do business with thier neighbors. And of course, people all over the world learn English to accomodate American tourists...

Yeah, I would say there's a huge difference between a relentless prick saying shit on a blog and a public school teacher in a classroom. Perhaps you should quit drinking so much snake venom.

You're referring to "an ongoing pattern" of "prejudice against foreigners?" Interesting. One of my closest friends is from South Africa. I would take a bullet for him.

As some of my female bloggers say, "fuckever." I pay to spew my shit here, and last I checked the first amendment to the Consitution guaranteed that. This is not a publication, or taking place in a venue supported by taxpayers. If what I say troubles or offends you, don't come here. No one forces you to visit.

Larry, ITA with you overall, but (1) I didn't get that from this post and (2) I was commenting on it in a vacuum sense.

Creepy: This is not a publication, or taking place in a venue supported by taxpayers.

...be..eee...eee...p...

This is precicely the argument I made about the Huhammad (sp?) cartoons and the "Frog". You said it didn't matter...

It doesn't particularly offend me. I guess it troubles me a little, but if you weren't a freind I sure as hell wouldn't bother. Hell, go to the Miami Herald's web site and read the reader comments left after any article involving anyone not of white, European descent. I certain;y don't think you're particularly bad.

That doesn't mean I can't try to deliver you from your evil ways. :)

Freshlyevil: Understood. Taken in a vaccum, without the previous comments about Spanish in the drive-throughs, foreigners on the roads, foreigners taking American jobs, etc, etc. It could be read as pretty benign. He probably honestly sees it as perfectly reasonable.

Maybe I should explain a little (don't roll your eyes just yet).

I'm sure not much of stickler for political correctness. I don't claim to be perfect, and coming from a Southern background and growing up in a mostly white neighborhood on the edge of poor black neighborhood, there was I time when I probably would have made that teacher blush.

I can't point to anything in particular that made me change my ways except perhaps mellowing with age, and losing touch with a few friends who reinforced my behaviour.

There's probably no way to say this that can't be read as condescending or worse, but I'll go ahead and hope you tolerate me for a while longer...

My purpose in busting your balls on some of these issues is not even necessarily to get you to change your behavior on those issues. It's more to get you to understand where the other side is not so differnt from you. (I probably lose that purpose in the details sometimes.)

Obviously, you have anger issues (big epiphany, huh?). If you could learn to cut the other guy some slack from the beginning, maybe you could relax a little.

Yes, I know, this is a place where you can vent and that's probably helpful (even with me around), but you wouldn't be saying it here if you weren't thinking it the rest of the day. In my completely unqualified opinion, that's REALLY not good for you.

Sorry to hear about "A," you two seemed pretty happy for awhile.

Hope things work out with A.

Your blog, so write whatever the hell you want. If you piss people off or defame them then that is something you can deal with when the time comes and if anyone wants to make anything of it.

I have noticed a pattern in your blog too. Every couple of posts you insert a really cool quote. I have decided that instead of looking for my own quotes I am just gonna keep swinging by here and lift them straight from your blog.

Thanks.

Larry: You don't think I'm "particularly bad?" LOL I guess I'll take that as a compliment.

And I "have anger issues?" Where would you ever get that idea?

"There's probably no way to say this that can't be read as condescending or worse, but I'll go ahead and hope you tolerate me for a while longer."

I don't mind opposing opinions, and the back and forths with you keep me on my toes (you were on the debate team in high school, righ?). As long as you (or anyone else) don't disrespect me or try to "put me in my place" feel free to speak your mind here all you like.

Nah, I wasn't thinking about it all day. I jot things down as the day goes by so I don't forget when I finally have time to sit down and write.

Rob: help yourself to the quotes. I help myself to them from other sites.

Creepy: you were on the debate team in high school, righ?

Yeah, right. A class/club dedicated to the art of effectively arguing for shit you don't even believe yourself? The machine that churns out politicians? Yeah, I'll sign up for that right after I join a labor union... :)

You know Larry, I take umbrage with you insisting my posts "give a pretty strong vibe of prejudice against foreigners." My thought in this post was that hearing conversations in multiple foreign languages simultaneously while trying to work was awfully distracting. (As if sitting in a fucking cubicle with people on top of me isn't distracting enough.) That makes me a xenophobe?

Yeah, when a company hires an immigrant because they will accept less money than an American -- not because they are more qualified, but to save the company some money -- at the cost of putting another American on the unemployment line, I have a problem with that. That makes me a xenophobe?

Yeah, immigrants coming to this country and making no effort whatsoever to learn the language, making life more complicated for the natives of the country, and even requiring them to become bilingual to gain employment, frosts my ass. (I should have to go back to school and learn a foreign language to get a job in my own country?) That makes me a xenophobe?

Yeah, when I go to a restaurant in America and can't order a fuckin' meal because the employee doesn't speak English I'll write a post here ranting about it. (How does a business owner hire someone to deal with customers who can't speak English in an English speaking country?) That makes me a xenophobe?

Yeah, when my job is made more difficult than it already is because some human resources cunt who only got her job because she was best friends with the owner's wife hired someone with less command of the English language than my 11 month-old cousin Mason, it sticks in my craw. It's hard enough trying to get through a work day in that hellhole, I need the inability to communicate with co-workers added to the cocktail like I need my balls stapled to my leg. That makes me a xenophobe?

Yeah, when my job is made more difficult because half of the people I work with have such thick accents I can barely understand a word, it rubs me the wrong way. That makes me a xenophobe?

Yeah, when American companies outsource jobs overseas to save a few bucks, again putting more Americans on the unemployment line, I wanna kick someone in the head. That makes me a xenophobe?

That seems like common sense frustration in my book, not xenophobia. But I could be wrong, that seems to be the case a lot lately, everywhere I turn.

Yes, hiring someone who hardly speaks English to deal with the public seems like a poor business decision. But then, if you would really pay ten cents more for your burger to get better service, you would probably be getting it. But you won't, you'll go to the cheapest place like everyone else, which is why businesses do everything they can to cut costs.

Creepy: My thought in this post was that hearing conversations in multiple foreign languages simultaneously while trying to work was awfully distracting.

Seriously, take a minute and ask yourself why that's more distracting than if they were speaking English. You might not like the answer if you're honest about it.

Creepy: Yeah, when a company hires an immigrant because they will accept less money than an American -- not because they are more qualified, but to save the company some money -- at the cost of putting another American on the unemployment line, I have a problem with that. That makes me a xenophobe?

No, the word we use when we're talking about this concept regarding other countries is "nationalist". You think for some reason that Americans are more deserving of a job than someone from another country. I have a problem with that. If someone can do my job for less money then they should have it. If the company wants to replace me with someone who's less qualified to save money then either they are going to out of business or they know something I don't.

If you want to be against something on this issue, try the laws that put immigrants in a position where their residency is tied to their employment, giving them artificial incentive to accept less money.

Creepy: Yeah, immigrants coming to this country and making no effort whatsoever to learn the language...

How many languages do you speak, mi puta? Most of the people you're complaining about speak enough English to get by. I think you WAY underestimate how much effort that requires to learn... I took 4 semesters of Spanish at the college level and I have trouble carrying on a conversation.

Creepy: Yeah, when my job is made more difficult because half of the people I work with have such thick accents I can barely understand a word, it rubs me the wrong way.

There's probably something to that. But then, if your job were easy they'd hire some teenager to do it right? Sucks having to actually work for a living... :) :) :) (Make sure you don't miss the smileys.)

One tiny thing to add. When I think of immigrants, I think of naturalized citizens, as opposed to resident aliens. An immigrant *is* and American.

Okay, make that two things. Why is the concept of a national language of concern? Why does our nationality have to have anything to do with what language we speak?

FWIW, Larry, I find it more difficult to tune out sounds/conversations that I am not used to. I have conversations in Spanish, Portuguese and Italian carried on around my office from time to time and while I can't understand them, I don't hear any of the languages enough that I'm not distracted when I first hear them. Then I move on.

FE: Larry, I find it more difficult to tune out sounds/conversations that I am not used to.

But Creepy's been there a few years now, it's not new...AND he lives in Miami. It's more than unfamiliarity if it continues to irritate him.

I don't know if it's new, regular occaisional or whatever. While I'm not from Miami, my area has a very, very diverse population rich with non-English speaking people. But in my daily, small minded existence, since I don't speak anything other than English, despite 5+ years of French, Spanish and Portuguese still sound unfamiliar to me as does Italian--and I'm the first generation in my family on both sides who doesn't at least understand if not speak Italian.

On that topic, I've always been annoyed that my father (a naturalized citizen born in Italy) didn't teach me Italian as a child. But at the time, *his* parents pounded into his head that in America, one should speak English and he worked hard to ensure that he lost his accent. He refused to speak it in our house and until his parents became old enough that they reverted back to Italian, really only spoke English with them. Now that we do a substantial business in Italy, he looks back with regret at not raising me bilingual. He himself can no longer carry on more than a simple and slow conversation in Italian. He's a bit better in Sicilian but not much. It's a real shame to me to have lost that opportunity and left me at a disadvantage in terms of global business that would take me years and much effort to remove today.

Larry: "Ask yourself why that's more distracting than if they were speaking English?" Can't say. Perhaps because I'm more used to hearing English. But the mix of Spanish and Chinese about made my head explode. Not sure that makes me a xenophobe.

And I don't "think for some reason that Americans are more deserving of a job than someone from another country." I think hiring a resident alien because they will accept less money than an equally qualified American is bogus. It's been going on at our company for years, a Harvey staple.

I speak a little Espanol, my pendejo. I go out all the time and encounter people in South Florida who do NOT speak enough English to get by. Ever work with that fella Yoanri in our office? And I underestimate how much effort it takes to learn a foreign language? Not my fuckin' problem -- I'm not the one who moved to an English speaking country. You think I'm gonna get a pass if I move to Japan?

Sorry to here about A Creepy.

Creepy: I think hiring a resident alien because they will accept less money than an equally qualified American is bogus.

I can't think of a reason that would be the case, other than what you just denied. Why should an employer pay more for someone EQUALLY qualified? Why does where they're from have anything to do with it?

Creepy: You think I'm gonna get a pass if I move to Japan?

Maybe not in Japan. They're almost as bad as us. But of course, you can justify just about anything by pointing out that someone else does the same.

Larry beat me to it. If two candidtaes are equally qualified, why would it make any sense to hire the one who demands more money?

It's not a matter of of one equally candidate demanding more money... the candidate is only asking for market value. The other person is willing to take less than market value because they are looking for an opportunity, a shot at "the American dream." Which only serves to drive down the market value of salaries, which sticks it to the worker and benefits the greedy, wealthy business owner.

Sure, the owner can do whatever the hell the want, especially if it saves them some money, increasing their profit. That's capitalism. But if the owner looked at the bigger picture they might realize that saving $8,000 a year on a salary is increasing the number of unemployed American citizens. Every politician always talks about the importance of "creating new jobs." I guess it's only obvious to me that this practice is creating new jobs for non-citizens, while reducing the number of available jobs for citizens.

When does patriotism come into play? Since 9/11 everyone alleges to be a patriot, and patriotism is supposed to be such a crucial virtue. How patriotic is it to put American citizens out of work to increase your company's profit?

Yes, the owner has the right to do whatever they please, but I have the right to think it stinks. And I do think it stinks.

As I said here about a month ago, I believe greed is the most malevolent of all sins. And what has transpired in this country over the past month, as well as this issue we're discussing now, demonstrate this.

So if two equally qualified "citizens" applied for the same job and one was willing to take less money what should the employer do?

Creeps, you seem to be bitching about being called a spade but adamant in your opinion that being a spade is right.

Okay, so I'm bitching about being called a spade but adament that being a spade is right. Guilty as charged. Thank you for your patronage.

We'll just add "xenophobe" to the list of labels for me.

As Larry pointed out, xenophobia isn't the proper term.
If you want to take your toys and go home, feel free. If this is your opinion, stand by it and defend it. Just own it.

Okay, so I'm a "nationalist." Add that to my list of labels too.

Who's taking their toys and going home? This obviously is my opinion, I am standing by it, and owning it. Not to mention defended it for several days now. What more would you like me to do, tie a cherry stem with my tongue while doing a handstand?

I've given my side, and refuse to apologise for my opinions on this subject (or any other for that matter). You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. What, I'm supposed to sit here and go back and forth with you two for a few more days? I've presented my case, and your verdict was that I'm a "nationalist." So be it. I've been called much worse and am not interested in appealing the decision.

I just want your comment count to keep climbing. Sorry about you and A (although I read up above this post you're communicating). Your Mom sounds hilarious and good luck at trying to keep Tanya off your back. Maybe ask the Ouija if things get out of control? :-)

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